Gunner's Claw Forum

[Aavishkar]

Maybe the program makes max possible=treasure collected when u do that b'coz max possible has to be > or = treasure collected.
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By
Aavishkar Patel
Bangalore,INDIA

[Treasurer]

Yes, it certainly does, but what I meant was that the computer doesn't know what the collected treasure and the maximum possible treasure are. The increase of the maximum number must be in the program itself, apparently, so the programmers must have provided for the possibility of the loops.

[Grey Cat]

I don't know anything about game programming, but I think it does. When you play a level and type MPSCULLY at the beginning, the score screen automatically calculates how much treasure was available and how much you got. When you use the infinite loop the amount of "possible" treasure increases.
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[Treasurer]

Precisely, that's what I was talking about. But I know it doesn't know. For the computer those are just numbers and nothing else.
The process of calculating is easy enough. It's a usual way in programming. There is a variable for each type of treasure. At the beginning it's set to 0. Every time Claw grabs a piece of treasure of this type, that variable increases +1. At the end you're shown the number of times you grabbed this kind of treasure. All these commands are listed in the text of the program, otherwise the processor wouldn't do anything.
And the maximum number of treasure at a level is (logically) a constant, for there is always one and the same number possible at the level. But this doesn't matter. They could make it a variable (and I believe they did), and it wouldn't have stopped the computer from keeping it in the memory.
I'll say again that for the computer all those values are just numbers, and it doesn't get surprised if it sees that the amount the player collected exceeds the maximum amount, and it won't think of increasing the latter unless there is such a command in the program text. And the program text is created and edited by programmers. Only that is why at the moment I can't believe in anything but the fact that the increase was made by people. Of course I can't know for sure if the programmers knew or guessed about something like the loops; maybe they created that increase 'just in case'.

[Grey Cat]

[Treasurer]

Well, of course it 'remembers'. Your game is saved every time you trigger a Save Point or pass a level. What it means is that all your attributes (ammo, lives etc., including the collected treasure) are recorded into a special file. And every time you load a game the computer reads the information from that file. And as for the presence of the collected treasure after starting from a Save Point, I think the programmers just didn't want to bother recording which exactly pieces of treasure the player grabbed - that would require much more operations and memory.

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear about the 'maximum possible' treasure at a level. What I meant was the exact amount of treasure placed at the level, without any repopulations. Let's call it EA (the Exact Amount). Let's imagine the situation when no loops are possible. This is an ideal situation, but still it exists, for example, in Level 1. In this case the maximum possible amount (with repopulations) equals EA. And I think the developers created their levels so that no loops would be possible. But sometimes, when inspiration comes, people forget about many things, so I believe they just missed the cases with the loops. I hope I have a right to think that the level creators were almost, if not completely, sure that the player wouldn't be able to grab that 'repopulated' treasure, that's why they considered EA the maximum possible amount at a level. It's the logical reason for the maximum possible amount of treasure being a constant - I mean, for one exact level it's a constant. But it may be a variable - I'll say about it later.
The maximum number shown at the end of a level is normally the level's attribute, it isn't logical if it changes (see above). It increases only after you collect more than that - not before, and only due to an abnormal event.

Now about the variable: there are two variants: either the level's attribute (the maximum possible amount) is changed and shown at the end (In this case it's a variable.) or that attribute is replaced with the amount of the collected treasure, which is shown at the end (In this case the attribute may be a constant, but it doesn't participate in the level-end-screen.). But in both cases the change requires a command from the program, which tells me, personally, that people made it. In fact, this is the only thing I wanted to make you understand by my posts - the rest doesn't matter. Serious programmers are mostly foreseeing people (as far as programming is concerned). I had some experience of working with some.
You may ask: why did they foresee with the maximum amount and didn't with the loops? But the former relates to programming and the latter relates to level design. Personally I find it much easier to foresee and notice errors in programming than in level design.
By the way, who created that Trainer? If 'Claw' creators did and if it helps to grab more treasure, then maybe it explains the concrete reason for the possible increase of the maximum number of treasure.

[DzjeeAr]

Which leads us to question: For what purpose? Why at all would the creators make this possible?

I mean, it isn't the first time we would come across errors in claw. Level 12 holds a particular nasty bit of bad finishing it all up. If you run down the 'stairs' from the start and drop down, then jump into the water to the left, you can see the tiles just plain ending, for example. And what to think of the tigerguard in level 14? Surprised me the creators didn't test it properly to check if a perfect score was possible at all or not.
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~~~But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams beneath your feet. Tread softly, because you are treading on my dreams.~~~

[Treasurer]

I don't think there was any purpose. That's just lack of testing, I suppose. And also too much trust to theoretic assumptions.
In Level 4, by the way, there's also kind of a bug. It's in a bonus area with a lot of Spring Bushes. If you manage to ascend to the very right, you'll reach the top of the right tree (which is supposed to be the border of the area). No matter how far you'll jump to the right from it, you'll find yourself in a 'dead' zone with no exit.
Maybe they were in a hurry, or their attitude to the game wasn't very good - I don't know that.

[Teo phil]

[Grey Cat]

Treasurer, excuse me if I'm misunderstanding you but what you're saying doesn't make sense. The max amount of treasure is in no way constant, if you open Claw.rez with WinRez, add extra treasure to one of the 14 game levels, recompile it back into the game and then play the max amount of treasure has changed.

Can you explain it again?

And in level 2 there's a similar bug. If you go down the vertical drop that leads to a warp, then get back to the drop a section time and fall down it, you'll end up falling off the edge of the level with no way to get back.

And in addition to what Dz said, in level 12 along the tunnel that leads to the boss warp, if you look directly up you can see the end of the tiles.
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How about NEVER? Is NEVER good enough for you?

[Treasurer]

Yes, sorry, I wasn't quite clear again. When I used the word 'logically', I meant 'according to human's logic'. I wasn't speaking about the technical part at that very moment. I think it's clear: imagine a man who, let's say, plays 'Claw' the first time, not aware about any loops and not finding them. Of course he'll find that the maximum possible amount of treasure equals EA. In that sense I excluded any interference with the REZ-file. I meant that the maximum amount doesn't change (theoretically) during the process of playing; so it's a constant (logically - not technically); and this is its difference from the amount of the collected treasure, which is changing while you're playing.

But when I was speaking about the technical part, I didn't know if that's a constant or a variable - and I didn't want or need to know. I just mentioned the two possible variants and the conclusion. If it can't be a constant, all right - let it be a variable in both variants.

And about the place DzjeeAr told us of: it's even enough just to descend a couple of stairs and look down.

I wonder if it's a bug that in Level 7 you have to play from the Start to SP2 to meet the Crab with a coin.

They also missed the fact that in Level 14 you don't really need the Catnip right before SP1.

[Aavishkar]

What d hell is it(winREZ) and can someone mail it 2 me at
teslawolf@gmail.com
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By
Aavishkar Patel
Bangalore,INDIA

[Treasurer]

'WinRez is a Windows-Application that allows you to Create, Extract, View and Modify 'Rez' Files. Rez Files are the resource files used by the LithTech Engine.'
http://www.blackangel-software.com/Tools/WinRez.html

[Grey Cat]

Don't download the WinRez LT program, that doesn't work with Claw. Instead download WinRez 2.4.1.
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How about NEVER? Is NEVER good enough for you?